Gönül Dilaver and Ruud Schotting in dialogue: "You have to dare to embrace discomfort"

In this series of dialogues, we will get two people with different backgrounds together to talk about their past and present experiences. The idea is to start a conversation about practicalities, dilemmas, and possible solutions.

For our debut, we've invited two people with a passion for education. They had never met before our invitation, but did get in touch with each other through Microsoft Teams after we approached them.

Schotting: “In our Bachelor’s programme, most students and Dutch and white. That’s because part of the courses are taught in Dutch, although a little more than half of them are taught in English because the teachers are more comfortable working in that language. I have the impression that students with a migrant background tend to choose Bachelor's programmes like Law or Medicine. Our Master’s programmes are entirely taught in English, and therefore attract a more international group of students. We could turn our Bachelor's in Earth Sciences into an English-taught programme, too. I’m in favour of that idea, even though I know that such a change doesn’t necessarily mean that we’ll draw more students with a migrant background.

If you look at our research group, most PhD candidates and Master's students come from abroad. We’re proud to say we’re considered the most diverse research department. We have (and have had) people from Iran, China, Greece, Spain, Mexico, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia, and the USA, to name but a few. But there was also a time when we didn’t have a single Dutch person left, and I don’t think that was good either. We also have to try to retain talented Dutch students because that's good for diversity, too”.

Dilaver: “Our Master’s programme in Biomedical Sciences is pretty international, but it doesn’t reflect Dutch society. I feel like, in general, Utrecht University is fairly white. The pool of students with the potential to attend the university at Dutch secondary schools is much more diverse than what we see at UU. That’s certainly true if you look at our programme. I do wonder what’s causing that, and I think part of it is due to background: parents who didn't go to university themselves won't necessarily encourage their children to do so -- even if the children do have the potential.

The threshold to go to university is high for this group. In my view, the university could help lower it. Many students find their study programme scary in the beginning, especially if they’re the first in their family to go to college. That’s why, this summer, we’re starting a kick-start programme with the aim to give prospective students a chance to get to know the university a little more. What’s a university like? What is expected of students?

Another thing many students tell me is that they miss having teachers they can identify with. The educational system often lacks someone who leads by example, who shows them that they, too, can have a career like that. I never paid much attention to that in the past, but I’ve been realising more and more that I’m one of the few teachers with a migrant background.

Lastly, we could have more consideration for the students with different cultural backgrounds. I spoke with a student whose parents forbade her to participate in the honours programme because it was taught in the evenings. You can’t expect a student like that to completely free herself from her family. The parents didn’t understand the importance of the programme, and didn’t understand why it was organised in the evenings. That student wanted to quit, but then someone from the programme talked to the parents and she was allowed to participate after all. Study advisors could play a crucial role here”.

Schotting: “I think it’s self-evident to keep an eye on how students are doing as we play a role in their lives. As a teacher, you should try to make them feel at home at the university. Many students don’t have a clue what it’s like there. They say they go to ‘school’ and don’t have a clue what a PhD is. I always try to explain a little bit about how things work, and offer support where needed. I’ve also noticed that you can only succeed in academia if you know there’s someone who believes in you”.

Dilaver: “A teacher can make a difference in someone’s life. That’s my personal conviction and my experience as well. You can really give students a boost. For some of them, it’s an accomplishment to even be at the university at all. Someone who’s privileged usually has more opportunities, too. They are more aware of what to expect and they can talk to their family about their studies. They might not need to get a side job. Perhaps they have even done a summer school or their parents know someone who can help them get an internship. That's what I call a hidden curriculum. Teachers and internship coordinators who are aware of this can play an important role by having that conversation and helping to guide these students”.

Who is Gönül Dilvar

Schotting: “Diversity is important. We have to find a balance, not just in terms of cultural background, but also in terms of male-to-female ratio. For instance, we kept trying to find a woman for the role of professor, but that turned out to be difficult. We had a long list of highly-capable candidates. Almost all of them were flattered, but decided not to go for it because of their husbands' careers, or their family life. In the end, we found our dream candidate in Belgium. She was willing to come, but only part-time”.

Dilaver: “Gender diversity is definitely necessary. Not just for social justice, but also because getting a different perspective helps the society. Take cardiovascular diseases, for instance: doctors used to only look at men, and it turned out that the medication didn’t work the same on women. That happens so often in the pharmaceutical industry. But that's not all: the first soap dispensers, the ones that dispense soap automatically when you put your hand underneath the sensor, didn’t recognise black hands. Self-driving cars weren’t able to see people of colour. To name but a few examples. We need more perspectives.

“But we can’t achieve diversity in a single way. We need a more integral approach, which means not just having a more diverse community, but also taking each other into consideration. I'm shocked at how often students with different cultural backgrounds encounter prejudice. The fact that they can’t find internships as easily, for instance. A while back, a student told me that he was excited because that was his first time performing a surgery. The moment he was holding the organs in his hands, the doctor started a conversation about his background. 'Where are you from? No, not Breda, but where are your parents from? Oh, Turkey, and are your parents Erdogan supporters?' The student was so uncomfortable discussing such a sensitive subject during his first surgery ever. I don’t think the doctor meant to be racist, but we’ve got so many unconscious biases. We need to be more aware of them. I’ve noticed that most students with a migrant background struggle with being constantly put in a 'different' position, constantly seen as other”.

Schotting: “Yes, we encounter so many different cultures within our group, too. For almost six years, I sat next to a Chinese PhD candidate, who later became PostDoc. I saw her twice a day. She said ‘good morning’ in the morning and 'good evening' in the evening, that's it, despite the fact that we regularly tried to involve her in the group. Thankfully, she was an exception. Now we’ve got two Chinese PhD candidates who contribute a lot to the ambiance.

But there are some limits for me. For instance, I asked a Turkish professor who was going to be a guest lecturer for us how he felt about Erdogan. That was when Erdogan said some terrible things about Dutch people and I didn’t feel like having someone in the group who agreed with that. I also asked a very religious Pakistani whether he would accept being in the same room with women or if he would feel comfortable attending events where alcohol is served. You can wonder whether you should be asking these things in the first place, but they matter if you want to have a team where everyone feels at home”.

Dilaver: “I can understand that. As long as you’re also trying to get people involved. Explain the do’s and the don’ts of Dutch culture, encourage international students and employees to learn Dutch. If you’re organising drinks, make sure there are snacks they’ll like. That increases the sense of belonging.

Diversity and inclusion are valuable, but not necessarily easy. People tend to look for those who are similar to them. The core of inclusion is that you dare to embrace the discomfort and learn from each other. Research shows that the most successful people from different cultures are those who socialise the most, those who adapt. They lose a little bit of their own identity. I believe that. But you can leave some room open for that identity. In the Netherlands, you can see that standards and values are evolving: Sinterklaas is celebrated differently today compared to 380 years ago.

I’ve been asked whether I’d hire someone who votes for a far-right party. That’s a question of conscience and I would say yes. Provided that the person functions well and respects others, yes. But I haven’t encountered this situation in real life yet”.

Schotting: “Sometimes, you almost literally have to take international students or researchers by the hand. I had a Pakistani PhD candidate who was incredible at reproducing facts. But we expect scientists to give us their own input, so I really had to teach him how to do that. Now, he’s going to be a senior lecturer in Pakistan and I’m immensely proud of that.”

Who is Ruud Schotting

Photos: Ivar Pel